Its nearly 30 years since I had a 225 SA, at the finish I was having lots of problems with it, after spending large amounts of money on field servicemen without much success, I bit the bullet and bought a new 325L

You may find the slow boom lift could be one or a multitude of problems, lack of signal pressure to the pumps to open the swash plates etc, could be only running on one pump instead of two for that function, you could have one pump on the way out. It will take a good man to diagnose issues on a 225, with no computer to help him it is a very specialist task to trouble shoot and eliminate. To fix all the things you have mentioned it would not be too hard to spend $20,000 plus.

i don't wish to poor cold water on things, just suggesting think carefully about how far you go and if not getting results is the tractor past it and time to step up to something later and in better order.

Regards, Wombat

Wombat wrote:

Its nearly 30 years since I had a 225 SA, at the finish I was having lots of problems with it, after spending large amounts of money on field servicemen without much success, I bit the bullet and bought a new 325L

You may find the slow boom lift could be one or a multitude of problems, lack of signal pressure to the pumps to open the swash plates etc, could be only running on one pump instead of two for that function, you could have one pump on the way out. It will take a good man to diagnose issues on a 225, with no computer to help him it is a very specialist task to trouble shoot and eliminate. To fix all the things you have mentioned it would not be too hard to spend $20,000 plus.

i don't wish to poor cold water on things, just suggesting think carefully about how far you go and if not getting results is the tractor past it and time to step up to something later and in better order.

Regards, Wombat

Yep, I agree with the "good man" part. When talking to Bob Ont all those years ago and him trying to explain to me how he'd go about troubleshooting, I quickly realized doing it myself could be a nighrtmare, and I've always been pretty good at diagnosing issues on cars/trucks, boats, ATV's, tractors, etc.  

And yes, if I could pay one of these good men ~$500 or more to tell me I'd have to spend $20k to fix the issue, then it would clearify my options.

Hi Team,
it came to mind overnight that the engine speed is controlled by the pilot pump which is one of the gear pump sections on the rear of the pump drive.
It has two orifices which are used to control the engine RPM when they sense a change in flow rate thru the orifices--one orifice is fixed and one is adjustable to allow for variations in supply pump and engine condition between different machines and so to set the signal pressure for pump output flow versus load.
This will be in the System Operation part of the Manual under "Control Valve for Pump Signal Pressure" (also known as the Underspeed Valve)
Maybe the unit needs adjusting to suit the 30W oil or else it is designed around usage of the 10W oil only?????????????

Does the engine lug too much ?, as I think without reading notes in depth that the engine runs at a full load speed of 2200 RPM and the Underspeed Valve tries to keep the engine at 2200 RPM by altering the pump output flows and hence load on the engine.
As the system pressure rises against a load the pump out put needs to reduce to save stalling the engine--this is how it was done before Computer Controls came into play.
Cheers,
Eddie B

Ok, so I was wrong about the oil. The manual says HYDO 10W. Don't recall why Bob recommended 30W engine oil, will have to dig back through my correspondence with him, he may have even posted it here. There must have been a reason...

I did check the RPM, but iirc not under load. I think it was 2240 RPM.

Seems like I should be running ISO 46 then? I've read ISO 32 is lighter than 10W and not suitable for an excavator?

So I guess the question is, could the problem with the boom under load been attributed to the heavier oil as previously suggested? Also, would running the machine for 600 hrs with 30W as opposed to 10W have damaged the pumps? I've never experienced any other issues that would be attributed to a failed or worn pump. Just common leaks, hoses blowing and the slow boom lift.
 

Hi,
I think it would be beneficial if you could refresh our memories on the actual issue or issues you are having.
As you have said, Bob was starting to assist you back in the day and so I bowed out and put it out of my mind and so no longer recall what the issue was.
As the original issue came up on the old BB it is likely beyond my lack of computer skills to locate it.

If you could post the machine Serial Number again it would help to tie down the actual High Idle RPM's versus the S/No from a Service Magazine, Dated February 21 1977 that I have here Titled :-
Hydraulic System Specifications and Guidelines For Analysis Of Pump Control Circuits. It covers data for 215,225, 235 & 245 Excavators--it is some 10 pages out of 12 --the last pages cover the usual other machine upgrades issued for this publication and date.
Below I have listed the High Idle No load RPM's for the 51U 225.

The Full Load RPM is always 2200 +/- 15 RPM as tested with a powered test light connected to an insulated little brass screw mounted in an insulated sleeve on the top of the Governor Housing Torque Control Group cover.
The engine is steadily loaded until the light starts to flicker and the RPM's are noted--test 3 or 4 times to see a steady repeated RPM reading.
Several changes of Governor components were carried out over the life of the 3208 in the 225 and so explains the difference in the No Load( High Idle) rpm's versus S/No.

High Idle RPM:-
51U 1 - 589 = 2290 +/- 15 ( Inline Injection Pump)
51U 590 - 1136 = 2325 +/- 50 RPM (Sleeve Metering Vee Injection Pump)
51U 1137 - up = 2260 +/- 50 RPM. (Sleeve metering Vee Injection Pump)

These RPM's are measured with the machine at full Operating Temperature-- and with the correct Specific Gravity (15W) oils for the tests to be meaningful.

Maybe the 30W oil was recommended to help overcome excessive hydraulic cylinder piston packing bypass?

Having issues trying to load the above Service Mag. Article so will post this and try again in Edit mode

---

Have resolved issues with my scanner and adding attachments on here.

Hope this helps whom ever comes to troubleshoot your 225 H.E.X ( Cat speak for Hydraulic Excavator) and others in the future with an early other size model unit.

Regards,
Eddie B.

Eddie,

Thanks again for the great info.

The S/N for my 225 is 51U2607

I found my email correspondence with Bob about the oil, looks like I only got half right what he told me ~13 years ago:

"We had a great Christmas and Boxingday Gene. We used Hydo oil in the hyd
systems for a while but then switched to 10 W 30 (DEO) Diesel Engine oil
to save
carrying the extra type. The Diesel Engine oil contains more Zink and is
supposed to give increased pump life compared to Hyd oil. You can use 10 W
30 DEO in
the engines and hyd of both your Cat machines. The Powershift on the D6
needs
TDTO4 because it is made to work with clutch packs, I would recoment it
for a
Direct drive D6 too because of the steering and flywheel clutch. My take
on
it is just this not too Scientific but I think it is right. Oils have
inproved
greatly since the series 3 we used in everything on Cat Machines. Now we
get
more fuel economie and twice the engine life so I feel the engine oil is
too
slippery for clutch pack friction surfaces, thus a new oil formula was
needed.
Cat was the only machine useing the same oil in trans as engines back then
too,
IHC and AC/Fiat Allis all used a special trans oil in their powershifts.
Nothing lasted like a Cat powershift, it was planetary gear trans and the
clutches
where mostly large stationary Brakes, sometimes had one smaller rotating
clutch. IHC and AC had counter shaft transmissions and the clutches where
more
like collar shifts or syncronizers locking the gear to the shaft. These
smaller
clutches where more prone to slip.
Later Bob"

So Bob stated 10W30 not 30W. Reading comprehension is an important thing kids! So any help he was giving me about the slow boom lift, he was assuming I had 10W30 in the HYD system all the while I had 30W.  I have been using the 30W from the get-go and maybe I created the boom lift problem on my own by using the incorrect oil. What a dumbass...

The last time I worked on the 225, I was deling with a cooling issue:  www.acmoc.org/bb/discussion-d72/17527-ca...odifications?start=0

I don't expect you to read all that, but you were involved in that thread and as usual a great help.  Ultimately I switched from a 4 blade fan to a 6 blade (3N2444) properly centering the fan in the shroud, and re-coring the radiator. I did this work 5 years ago and then parked the machine, never giving it a proper test, but from what I can tell the cooling issue was solved.

In that thread, the slow boom lift came up again, more HYD issues were exposed. All the guts in the HYD tank cap were gone (no ball or disc), so I ultimately procured a new cap. There were discussions about a tank pressurization pump which it turns out I did not have, so just heat in the tank for pressurizing I think is where we left off on that.

One comment from you Eddie: "Do not feel silly if indeed the pressurising is all it takes to fix the slow boom 2 pump function --likely to improve it but more likely to be more than that as your engine does not lug."

Your comment about engine not lugging along with my 30W oil goof, I'm guessing may be the final piece of the puzzle after all these years...

I have not had the opportunity to heat up the machine recently to see if the tank pressurizes properly. 

Most of that thread deals with the fact the 3208 in the 225 was not sitting level, due to a very worn out front mounting arrangement. Ultimately I was able to solve that issue once I determined the problem.

I think my plan going forward is when I drain the oil from the tank to replace the pump return lines, to re-fill with 10W30 DEO so that I don't have to drain all the HYD equipment of the 30W DEO, that seems like a better plan than having a mix of 30W DEO and ISO46 in the HYD system. I have so many leaks to fix, but they will be fixed over time and not all at once. I will start with fixing the pump return lines, then parking brakes reseal, and I'll have to inspect the track motors as well, as I am not sure what is filling up both final drives, usually parking brakes from what I read. Then ultimately I need to repack the boom cylinders and then the bucket cylinder.

Really sounds like I stupidly created my own slow boom lift issue.

I have saved all the files you have attached in all these threads Eddie, and I thank you again for all the great help and documentation. I think I finally have a good gameplan, now I just need to pick and choose when I can spend the $$ on this old 225.
 

I would also like to thank you Eddie for the great information. One thing though, as mentioned before in my 305CR operators manual, straight 30W oil is allowed for temperatures from 10-50c. What you have said about the issues using thicker oil in the piston pumps and also what I have been taught and experienced about the issue why would Cat have 30W as being acceptable.

ETD66SS wrote:

Eddie,
I have been using the 30W from the get-go and maybe I created the boom lift problem on my own by using the incorrect oil. What a dumbass...
 

Before you chastize yourself too much better change the oil and see if it fixes the problem
I did ask you about the oil but I thought Cat systems must be engineered to take the 30W given it is in the manual for the 305 and at
www.catfluidselector.com/us/en_US/equipm...excavators_EFt8Pe1Om
for your 225.

Regards

Phil

PhilC wrote:

I would also like to thank you Eddie for the great information. One thing though, as mentioned before in my 305CR operators manual, straight 30W oil is allowed for temperatures from 10-50c. What you have said about the issues using thicker oil in the piston pumps and also what I have been taught and experienced about the issue why would Cat have 30W as being acceptable.

ETD66SS wrote:

Eddie,
I have been using the 30W from the get-go and maybe I created the boom lift problem on my own by using the incorrect oil. What a dumbass...




 

Before you chastize yourself too much better change the oil and see if it fixes the problem

I did ask you about the oil but I thought Cat systems must be engineered to take the 30W given it is in the manual for the 305 and at
www.catfluidselector.com/us/en_US/equipm...excavators_EFt8Pe1Om
for your 225.

Regards

Phil

 
Caterpillar list API CG-4, API CF and CAT TO-4 as alternative specifications. These oils must have a minimum zinc content of 900 ppm -20°C to 40°C
 Alternative recommendations, -20°C to 40°C: Cat TDTO 10W; Cat DEO ULS 10W-30
 Alternative recommendations, -15°C to 50°C: Cat TDTO TMS
 Alternative recommendations, -5°C to 45°C: Cat Hydo Advanced 20
 Alternative recommendations, 0°C to 50°C: Cat Hydo Advanced 30

So is that CAT HYDO Advanced 30 the same viscosity as 30W DEO?

In any event, no way does it reach 50 degrees here...

Oh, and thanks to Phil for asking the oil question, significant piece of the puzzle.

Hi,
like Phil says lets not get too harsh on yourself as yet and, as a first step of troubleshooting would be to change the Hyd. oil and see where we go from there.
I was taught and found from experience that in troubleshooting a seemingly big problem it can be a combination of little issues that as they are rectified the big issue goes away--often the case when many others have tried to fix some issue and overlooked the small things wrong along the way or simply dismissed them as not related.

First step of my troubleshooting routine is to return the machine to standard Cat specifications and go from there.
In this case we are starting with the Hyd. oil as it is now realised was incorrect.

You are all welcome on the advice as I do my best to get this knowledge of some 43 years of my full working career working at the Dealer and also the knowledge gained at many Cat and Dealer schools before it is lost forever and also to Honour those who took the time to show and teach me before I ever started as an Apprentice and on during my Apprenticeship at the Dealer and beyond.

Regards,
Eddie B.